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Best in Slot after-raid
I have noticed while searching online that despite the abundace of guides that list the BiS pre-raid (and that's pretty much the starter gear here) I wasn't able to find a list or tier guide for gear you get while raiding. At first I thought it was bc Raid sets were pretty much the best available, then when I looked closer I noticed it was not (e.g. many mention bloodvine set being BiS till Naxx for lock and mages, meaning they're better then tier 1 and 2 set pieces).
Am I missing something obvious about gearing?
Hi, welcome to retro-wow.

Spell hit is insignificant, and bloodvince is probably BiS for poor people who don't have the ability to get full T2. Think about it, 40 man raids, it's not easy to get full sets so a lot of people maximized their efforts with BiS gear that wasn't from raiding.

The 'obvious' thing you're missing is the big elephant in the room. Retro wow is scaled down 5 man instances, you shouldn't compare raw vanilla data with 10 year old fun private server scripting, it's not going to work out to your advantage. That being said, there lies the fun in playing here, you can define and pioneer your own BiS set/spec for raiding.
Hi there!
Now I'm getting even more confused, I Read everywhere that the most important thing is to cap spell hit to +16% between talents and equip, then go for spell power.

I understand there may be some big differences between 40-man raiding and 5-man raiding (buffs and strategies comes to my mind, and so does the less usefullness of build more pointed towards pumping up others' dmg, such as Winter Chill for mages without hang a full dmg built mage with you), but I don't get how could spell hit get less important if the calculation where made in order to maximize your on dmg. If hitting slightly more often gives you more dmg then hitting harder but missing a bit more, how could this be different in 40 vs 5 men raid?

I'm pretty new to all this, so I'm trying to understand a bit more Wink
(e.g. many mention bloodvine set being BiS till Naxx for lock and mages, meaning they're better then tier 1 and 2 set pieces).Clearly Bloodvine is one of the best preraid Bis gear but not till naxx,since mages could reach 10% hit cap by other items they replaced them with items like (t2.5,offpices).Now warlocks had it way harder then mages since there is no Talent which improve the Spell Hit raiting of Warlocks.And No Suppression does not count for Shadow Bolts(Destruction Spell).Depnds on what u are playing ur gonna exchange ur Bloodvine Set with start raiding Aq40,since the T2.5 gear has alot of SpellHit for boths Classes.
hi, i don't have time to do every class right now, but here's 3 of the more common classes' post-naxx bis.

1. bonescythe helmet + zg enchant
2. prestor’s talisman of connivery
3. bonescythe pauldrons + saph enchant
4. shroud of dominion + subtlety (though rogues can wipe threat with vanish, that wastes time. 3 agility is pretty insignificant)
5. bonescythe breastplate + 4 stats
6. bonescythe bracers + 7 strength
7. bonescythe gauntlets + 15 agility
8. belt of never-ending agony (still worth using even if you don’t have t3 ring in most situations. the 8 piece t3 bonus has close to zero value here in most scenarios, since the only time you ever eviscerate is while adrenaline rush is active. keeping s+d and expose up eats up all your combo points otherwise. 8/9 t3 is very good when there’s another rogue in the group who’s exposing, though)
9. bonescythe legplates + zg enchant
10. bonescythe sabatons + 7 agility (technically. i prefer minor speed though)
11. drake fang talisman > slayer’s crest, but it’s close
12. kiss of the spider
13. bonescythe ring (unobtainable other than from the vendor atm. the next best is ring of the qiraji fury)
14. band of unnatural forces
15. gressil, dawn of ruin + crusader + deadly poison
16. the hungering cold + crusader (double crusader works) + instant poison (if there’s windfury, take deadly poison off of your mainhand and put it on your offhand). (if you’re a human, then thunderfury is better. if you’re a human and don’t have thunderfury, then iblis. while i’m at it, a note about humans: orc racial gives +25% total ap, not base, so an orc with hungering cold beats out a human with thunderfury. 310 weapon skill is important, but rogue talents give 5 and 6 can be gained from hungering cold).
17. soulstring + biznick’s 247x128 accurascope
race: orc, by a wide margin

warrior (prot)
1. dreadnaught helmet + zg enchant
2. mark of c’thun
3. dreadnaught pauldrons + saph enchant (you could make a really good argument for the ap/crit enchant over the tanking one)
4. cryptfiend silk cloak + 1 dodge
5. dreadnaught breastplate + 4 stats, though an argument can be made for 100 hp. not sure if core armor kits are added. if they are, then an argument can also be made for them.
6. dreadnaught bracers + 3 defense or 7 strength
7. dreadnaught gauntlets + 2 threat, though a decent argument can be made for 15 agility.
8. dreadnaught waistguard
9. dreadnaught legplates + zg enchant
10. dreadnaught sabatons + minor speed is pretty crucial imo. tanks have to move a lot - heigan dance, anub kite, playing tag with noth, repositioning bosses. for a pure tank and spank fight though, like patchwerk or thaddius, agility is of course better. but i really think you’re gimping yourself on the more involved / movement-based tank fights, for a pretty minor boost for pretty easy bosses.
11. styleen’s impeding scarab
12. glyph of deflection. there are niche cases where lifegiving gem is better. maexxna, for instance.
13. ring of the dreadnaught (unobtainable other than from the vendor atm. the next best ring is the exalted aq40 rep ring)
14. ring of emperor vek’lor
15. main hand weapon depends. in a 100% rage capped situation and ignoring attack power, alcor’s sunrazor gives top threat generation (428.9 to thunderfury’s 413.5). if you don’t have enough rage coming in to spam heroic strike, then either thunderfury (which, keep in mind, slows rage income even further because of the attack speed debuff) or hungering cold. again, it really depends on the fight. high damage fights where you have to help your healer out, like maexxna or faerlina, thunderfury is king. dps race fights where you’re getting whacked hard and you have to raise the threat cap for your dps, like thaddius, alcor’s sunrazor is surprisingly bis. ik it seems like i pulled the 428.9 / 413.5 numbers out of my ass. i think this reply isn’t the best place to explain where i got them, but if people want to reply we can talk about them. best mainhand weapon enhancement is windfury, followed by elemental sharpening stone. best enchant is very debatable. i would go with agility. icy weapon (if it's coded, haven't tested) and fiery blaze are also good options. agility > crusader no matter what, though
16. the face of death. you also want to have a decent offhand weapon for some bosses, namely: noth balcony phase, saph flying phase, and (depending on your heigan strategy) heigan platform phase. best offhand weapon is hungering cold, not currently attainable except from the vendor, followed by claw of the frost wyrm. obviously thunderfury is better than both, but that should be in your main hand in these situations.
17. soulstring + biznicks 247x138 accurascope (once you get 6 piece t3, hit really goes down in value for tanks. it’s still a little useful for situations where you don’t have enough rage to spam heroic strike, but otherwise it’s entirely worthless. crit is always really good though).
race: tauren (5% health. war stomp is good for a lot of trash pulls. i’ve never played a dwarf tank so i can’t say how the dwarf racial works on this server with certain bosses. maybe it cleanses heigan’s debuff or something, which would put dwarves in the conversation for best tank race. but they are small. you must roll tauren and drink winterfall firewater and ride kodo.

1. plagueheart circlet + zg enchant
2. gem of trapped innocents (not currently obtainable atm except from the vendor. the next best necklace is amulet of vek’nilash)
3. plagueheart shoulderpads + saph enchant
4. cloak of the necropolis + subtlety
5. plagueheart robe + 4 stats
6. the soul harvester’s bindings + 7 intellect (pretty controversial whether crit is better than hit. i don’t want to get into it, but i think crit is better regardless of what amount of hit you have. if you prefer hit, then rockfury bracers [dunno if you can get them here, haven’t tried] or bracers of arcane accuracy)
7. dark storm gauntlets + 20 shadow damage
8. eyestalk waist cord
9. leggings of polarity + zg enchant
10. plagueheart sandals + minor speed
11. the restrained essence of sapphiron (when kt is released, his quest trinket will be better vs undead in some scenarios)
12. neltharion’s tear
13. seal of the damned
14. ring of unspoken names (if you are buffed out the kazoo and 100% bis. if you are not bis and/or are not using literally every consumable and world buff added on the server, then go with ring of the fallen god).
15. mage atiesh + 30 spell power (atiesh is currently only obtainable through donation. based on the fact that i’ve seen warlocks running around with mage atiesh, i believe when you donate for atiesh you get to pick which one you receive. mage atiesh is so juicy. when kel’thuzad is released, warlock atiesh will become obtainable and is better than wraith + eye. mage atiesh > warlock atiesh > wraith + eye. if there is someone else in your group who shares the same atiesh as you, then wraith + eye is better.
16. doomfinger (not currently obtainable except from the vendor. also, wand of fates if you prefer hit)
race: gnome, but it’s a marginal upgrade. 5% intellect is good, i just prefer having will of the forsaken, which is a huge pvp edge, to having a small pve edge.

if you want, i can do other classes / pre-naxx bis lists. and to answer your question about whether you're missing something obvious- no, not at all. for some classes, like warlock and mage, gearing is kind of nebulous and you definitely shouldn't just go for 9/9 t3. the main reason bis overall lists don't exist is because players who are at that level of content don't need them. i doubt you had any warlocks in 2006 whose guilds had progressed far enough to kill c'thun and maexxna, but were using t3 gloves over dark storms by choice or not for the set bonus.
Nice post i will share my own text documents i had made :-)


[Cryptstalker Headpiece] Naxx Thaddius 20k
[Stormrage's Talisman of Seething] Naxx Kel'thuzad 15k -
[Cryptstalker Spaulders] Naxx Abomina.. 20k
[Shroud of Dominion] Naxx Sapp 15k -
[Cryptstalker Tunic] Naxx 4horseman 20k
[Cryptstalker Wristguards] Naxx Spider.. 20k
[Marshal's Chain Grips] Pvp 1k pvp tokens
[Cryptstalker Girdle] Naxx Necro... 20k
[Cryptstalker Legguards] Naxx Loatheb 20k
[Cryptstalker Boots] Naxx DK.. 20k
[Band of Unnatural Forces] Naxx Loatheb 15k
[Ring of  the Cryptstalker] Naxx Kel'thuzad 20k -
[Slayer's Crest] Naxx Sapphiron 15k
[Drake Fang Talisman] BWL Ebonroc 7k

[Soulstring] Naxx 4horseman 20k
[The Eye of Nerub] Naxx Loatheb 20k

Total : 265 k hold

[Lionheart Helm] Blacksmithing
[Stormrage's Talisman of Seething] Naxx Kel'thuzad 15k
[Conqueror's Spaulders] AQ40 Viscidus 7k
[Cloak of Concentrated Hatred] AQ40 Prophet 5k
[Plated Abomination Ribcage] Naxx Thaddius 15k
[Qiraji Execution Bracers] AQ40 Twins 5k
[Gauntlets of Annihilation] AQ40 C'thun 7k
[Girdle of the Mentor] Naxx Instructor 15k
[Titanic Leggings] Blacksmithing 6k
[Chromatic Boots] BWL Chrommagus 6k
[Band of Unnatural Forces] Naxx Loatheb 15k
[Master Dragonslayer's Ring] BWL Nefarian 5k
[Kiss of the Spider] Naxx Faerlina 15k
[Drake Fang Talisman] BWL Ebonroc 7k

[Gressil, Dawn of Ruin] Naxx kel'thuzad 20k
[The Hungering Cold] Naxx kel'thuzad 20k
[Crossbow of Imminent Doom] AQ20 Ossirian 5k

TOTAL:168k gold!


Bis pve for ret:
[Lionheart helm] Blacksmithing armor
[Stormrage's Talisman of Seething] Naxx-Kel'thuzard 15k
[Spaulders of the Grand Crusader] Naxx-Trash mobs 15k
[Shroud of Dominion] Naxx-Sapphiron 15k
[Plated Abomination Ribcage] Naxx-Thaddius 15k
[Wristguards of Vengeance] Naxx-Arub'nekhan 15k
[Gauntlets of Annihilation] AQ40-C'thun 7k
[Girdle of the Mentor] Naxx-Instructor razuv 15k
[Leggings of the Grand Crusader] Naxx-Trash 15k
[Chromatic Boots] BWL - Chrommagus 6k
[Quick Strike Ring] MC  - 4 bosses 4k
[Band of Unnatural Forces] Naxx-Loatheb 15k
[Kiss of the Spider] Naxx-Maexxna 15k
[Drake Fang Talisman] BWL -Ebonroc 7k

[Might of Menethil] Naxx - kel'thuzad 20k

Total: 190k

Bis for PVP:
T2.5 AQ40 35k
[Cloak of Concentrated Hatred] AQ40-The prophet skeram 5k

No time to log in and check prices of items , so i fixed only hunter prices
So many of these aren't actually bis items, not anyone specific but i read over a few and many aren't bis Rogue legs are 4hm ones which are bis
for a warrior in pve legs from heigan are bis
etc etc
Just saying
i agree on heigan legs.

regarding 4hm legs, every spreadsheet i've tried favors t3 legs. it boils down to 16 strength and 1 hit vs 1 crit.

expose stacks with sunder, which makes hit a little better (magnified white damage) and crit a little worse (less eviscerates). obviously crit is still better than hit, but i don't know if it's 16 str better than hit.

and if you're with another rogue who's exposing, then you want the 8x t3 bonus + cthun belt. so i can't think of a pve situation where i'd favor 4hm legs over t3.
I've found some spreadsheet about warlocks and shadowpriest, I'le report them here as soon as I get home, btw for the sake of discussion there's a point I'd like to make.
Someone above said that usually when a player is raiding for some time he's supposed to be able to evaluate items at in a way that makes spreadsheets or list of BiS useless to him. While I agree with the General concept I find rly different evaluating if an Item is better in toe to toe comparison and making a spreadsheet with BiS, first finding casually an item (and rate it in comparison with your own) and going in a raid searching for a specific item dropped by a specific boss or trash (and planning your raiding accordingly) are two different beast, add to this the fact that while an Item may be better in flat values then another in the bigger picture it might be worse (e.g. an item that gives you +2% chance to hit but a lower flat +dmg may result worse than an Item that gives you no chance to hit but a better flat dmg bonus if there are other item combos that let's you hit cap losing less flat +dmg, while it might be better if it's the more efficient way to hitcap), and being able to rate it requires the player to know ALL drops from all the bosses (or at least the one in a given tier range), so I can still see usefulness in spreadsheets even at raiding level of knowledge, at least to have an easier to browse resources that Tell the player an Item exist, without forcing him to browse and memorize every Item in the loot table of every boss from the late game, and so does the next level shortcut of BiS lists.
I can do one for mage, dont remember the name of all the objects
THIS SETUP DOES NOT USE 3PC T3, if your tank is good and your not brain dead you shouldn't need it for naxx.


Helm- T3 (20k)
Shoulders- Gulth Sholders (15k)
Neck- Kel-Thuzzad one (+2 crit) (15k?)
Back- Saphh one (15k)
Chest- T3 (20k)
Tabard- AB one obviously , or USA bubbled Guilds one
Wrists- Soul harvesters Bindings, think they drop from Gothikk (15k)
Main Hand- Wraith Blade (20k)
Off Hand- Sapph DPS caster one (20k?)
Wand- Doomfinger (KT drop) (20K)
Gloves- Dark Storm gauntlets/ T2 gloves (8k) (5k)
Belt - Eye Stalker Waist (8k?)
Pants- Leggings of Polarity (15k)
Boots- T3 (20K)
Ring 1 -T3 (20K)
Ring 2- Ring of eternal flame? naxx trash drop (15k?) can't remember.
Trinket 1- Nef Tear (7k?)
Trinket 2- Sapph DPS caster one (15k)

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