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Pvp in vanilla, according to me
#1
Heart 
A lot of wow players believe that vanilla pvp isnt balance and is not interesting because rogue kill you in full cc, mage pom pyro, ret one shot etc etc...
I totally aggree with the point they are making, that every classes in vanilla have a real burst, or to be more accurate, no classes in vanilla have resilience/hp.

In that post, i share with you the 2 kind of gameplay vanilla pvp is great at, and how to make those 2 gameplay happen. Because if you really think about it, vanilla pvp has something appealing, nobody can deny that.
That attractiveness exist exactly because of the the very simple gameplay of vanilla. A gameplay that become complex and very challenging the moment you are fighting with a team tho.
And that attractiveness is in my opinion because of the fact that you have a huge freedom. Every player in vanilla can change most of the fight, or to be more accurate : every player can see directly the impact he got on fights. A lock amking a fear on a hpal will definitly change the teamfight, a war makign sweeping stricke + ww on several casters will definitly change the game etc...
So that is the best part of vanilla, the fact that evry player can change a game. And that part is also what makes vanilla pvp kinda weird because you can get 2 shot without being able to do anything about it.

So i what i will try to make you see here, is how we can keep that very interesting side of vanilla that allows you if you have enough awareness and experience to have a real impact, and in the same time reducing by a lot the 2 shot issue of vanilla.  

But first, for thos eof you (like me) that don't need to read theorycal stuff to anderstand an idea, and can anderstand the point with their own eyes, i suggest you take a look at that video and use a little bit of your imagination :

Look from the 23:00 minutes (to the end if you wish)





Now imagine if the team that bis guild is fighting would be as geared as them. Oh just imagine if the team they were fighting had bis warrios and healers and mages. All the strategy players would have to make in order to have more chances to kill the other team. Warriors will have to charge together in the crowd, mages will have to snare as much people as possible, sham elem will chain in the crowd, sp and lock will dot eveyrthing : Everyone would have to use their brain and be as much aware as they can in order to optimize their actions....
If you hav enough imagination, i think you can clearly see that huge teamfights with same geared players IS the core of vanilla, the very core of it. What makes the genius of vanilla, the genius of having a game that require communication between his players in order to win, or at least a huge awareness of the environment.



So let's be more practical maybe. I've come to realize that there are few kind of pvp in vanilla that makes pvp great. And it requires either big teamfights, or small teamfights with very good players, AND it requires 1 ennemy to fight. No more. The moment you fight more than 1 same ennemy (1 ennemy can be several players but the point is that they must be all together are all against, so i hear 1 ennemy as 1 single team), the unbalance and chaos is here. If 1 team is fighting 2 teams they will lose for sure. And it's pure ganking. Wich is why there need to be only 1 ennemy (or 1 team) in any kind of pvp gameplay in vanilla. In another situation, when players have stratholme or dunjeon gear, chaos can be good as a player won't get 2 shot, but even in that scenario, it doesnt provide the player the entire freedom vanilla pvp can offer.

So it will be way too much rng , any team that will be focus by 2 team won't stand a chance. On other expansions, the burst of each class is less important because of several reasons (resilience, hp etc..), so if one player is targetted by multiple players, his healer can still save him.

So in vanilla, the pvp content that are making vanilla pvp great and unique :

20v20 (or more) :


As i said, classes in vanilla burst a lot because of several reasons, and unbalance can happen a lot. Especially with the t3 gear. But the more you increase the number of players, the more you reduce the unbalance. It's just probability. If you add more players, the chances that one team is more powerfull than the other is being reduced.
In a 10v10 situation, we see it in bg everyday : The chances arent low enough and we quickly have unbalance, because one team got 1 t3 pally and t2 5 war.
  Now you make 20v20, and that t3pally and t2,5 war will definitly not have the same impact. The number of players to required to have a real impact in a 20v20 fight is way higher, precisly because of the vanilla gameplay, gameplay that is very efficient and simple. 2 mages free casting a t2 5 war with a pally behind him will still die.
  So this is the reason why 20v20 and more (40v40 would be great, maybe in the future who knows) is a great way of pvp in vanilla.

Now the other gameplay not known by most vanilla players yet are 3v3 ( 2v2 works less but still does :

It's different from 3v3v3 or 4v4v4 or 1vX because there is only 1 single ennemy (or team) to fight. Therefor the ganking is not possible and skill are the only things that matters. Luck will also matter, but way less than a XvXvX situation. So it MUST be XvX. Not more. 3v3 is the limit when the pvp is still balance with very good players, under it it's too rng even with pro, i tried 2v2 with some mates and there are too many comps that are unbalance no matter how hard we try. In a 3v3 situation, the try hard actually makes a real difference, even if sometimes some comps are definitly  unbalance if players of both teams are skill equivalent. But overall, 3v3 is working just great, and truly is challenging.

Now the question is, how to make those 2 kind of gameplay happen ?

20v20 and more :


Instanced bg without a too big map but still, the size
The goal is to kill.
The team that gathers lets say 300 kills in total wins the game.

For 40v40 it can be 500 kills for the win

Each member of the team that won get a box with 1k5 gold inside


3v3 :

Instanced bg
The goal is to kill
You can q with 2 or 1 of your mate, or just solo q
The team that gathers 50 or 80 kills win the bg
Each member of the team that won get a box with 500g inside


What i would also see is that we remove the pvp token from warsong arathi and av, and we make that system only in those bg's with 20v20 and 3v3. It will make the warsong more interesting because players that decide to play there will play the objectives way more. And players that enjoy frag and killing people will simply go in the 20v20 or 30v30 or 40v40 or 3v3 bg's.
Yes, there could be 30v30 and 40v40 if retrowow get more population at some point.


So yea, those are the only kind of gameplay vanilla is great at, world pvp in vanilla was just a rogue kiling his pve target in full cc basically. So that kind of world pvp is just a memory from the past, and what we truly like about that kind of pvp is more the feeling we had during that time, more than the actual fun we had in the actual gameplay.
The true pvp is either huge teamfights, are small team fights of very good players that are ready to try hard to win imo. Those gameplay actually requires brain and skill, and are interesting.

And the only thing we need to do to make it happen is an instanced bg and make the objective to be the number of kill, and having as much player fighting in both team to reduce as much as possible the unbalance vanilla creates. If we can succeed in avoiding the unbalance vanilal creates, we can reach the greatness of vanilla pvp . The pure genius the blizzard devs had back then was to make that unbalance and that burst in each class, because of that, the teamfight will be are truly strategic and interesting because everyone will have a specific role. The wow of today lost the specificity of his classes, and in team fight the classes lost their originality. In vanilla, mages will snare and aoe, all the warriors of each team will coordinate each other to charge in the same time, all rogue will NEED to be working together in order to be effective etc.

If we succeed in avoiding the unbalance of teamfight by increasing the amount of players in each team with those custum battleground of at least 20v20, we can finally reach the genius of vanilla
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#2
I think there are a lot ofcongrunecies in our respective posts, I'd also like to thank you for taking the time to respond and state your opinions.
I think the only thing we might disagree on would be team sizes and I think you touch on a lot of good points there.
When I'm off work I'll explain what I'm about to say in more detail but for now I would say that detailing the format of group fights can be kind of dangerous for a few reasons.
Go sunqt!
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
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#3
That wall of txt crit me so hard! I'm waiting for res and will be back later with buffs and potions to finish it and add my 2 cents.
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#4
Only 2??
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
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#5
I want a 5v5 WSG premades only...
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#6
(03-22-2017, 06:15 PM)Gnawbone Wrote:  I think you touch on a lot of good points there.

Go sunqt!

i see what u did there
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#7
would you believe me if I told you that was unintentional
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
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#8
(03-23-2017, 02:59 PM)Gnawbone Wrote: Only 2??

I'm just a poor boy
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#9
Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality
Open your eyes, look up to the skies and see
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
Because I'm easy come, easy go, little high, little low
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me
Mama, just killed a man
Put a gun against his head
Pulled my trigger, now he's dead
Mama, life had just begun
But now I've gone and thrown it all away
Mama, ooh, didn't mean to make you cry
If I'm not back again this time tomorrow
Carry on, carry on as if nothing really matters
Too late, my time has come
Sends shivers down my spine, body's aching all the time
Goodbye, everybody, I've got to go
Gotta leave you all behind and face the truth
Mama, ooh, I don't want to die
I sometimes wish I'd never been born at all
I see a little silhouetto of a man
Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the Fandango
Thunderbolt and lightning, very, very fright'ning me
(Galileo) Galileo, (Galileo) Galileo, Galileo figaro magnifico
(I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me)
He's just a poor boy from a poor family
Spare him his life from this monstrosity
Easy come, easy go, will you let me go?
Bismillah! No, we will not let you go
(Let him go) Bismillah! We will not let you go
(Let him go) Bismillah! We will not let you go
(Let me go) Will not let you go
(Let me go) Will not let you go
(Let me go) Ah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
(Oh mamma mia, mamma mia) Mama mia, let me go
Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me, for me, for me
So you think you can stone me and spit in my eye?
So you think you can love me and leave me to die?
Oh, baby, can't do this to me, baby!
Just gotta get out, just gotta get right outta here!
Nothing really matters, anyone can see
Nothing really matters
Nothing really matters to me
Any way the wind blows
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
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